Current (Proposed) Errata for PDF of Dungeon Grappling
There’s always something that gets away, and this release is no different. I learned from Steve Jackson Games, though, that there’s real benefit to waiting for a few weeks until the PDF gets a chance to be worked over by the meticulous, the curious, and the interested.
So here’s the current list of proposed errata that I am considering making before the PDF goes to print, gets turned into an ePUB, and then is re-uploaded and distributed to backers and pre-order customers.
If you sent me something and I missed it, respond here, and I’ll either say “no,” as with some of the suggestions where “this could be done differently” is operative instead of “this is a mistake in grammar, formatting, usual style for this game, or something that is badly wrong.”
I’m doing this here because the Kickstarter comment forums is simply terrible for this sort of thing.
But as they say at the airport, “If you see something, say something!”
The actual table is below the break…
| Page | Original Text | Replacement Text |
| ALL | Feat | feat (find/replace with lowercase) |
| ALL | Grappled, Grabbed, Restrained, etc (when referring to conditions) | lowercase |
| ALL | Control or Control Points (capitalized) | Control or control points (lowercase, except in titles) |
| ALL | control maximum (lowercase) | Control Maximum (upper case; it’s like Hit Dice, and is always capitalized) |
| TOC | Heading formatting | Looks like Section and Topic got the same formatting, and it’s throwing folks.Maybe nudge Topic and SubTopic in by a few spaces, or something? Let’s just ensure Chapter, Section, Topic, and “lower than topic” are all distinguishable. |
| 2 | But they are terrifying because they bite with more than three tons of force, and then drag you underwater to disorient and drown their prey with a “death roll.” | But they are terrifying because they bite with more than three tons of force, dragging prey underwater to disorient and drown them with a “death roll.” |
| 5 | There are three important concepts. The attack roll, the defense target number, and the effect roll. | There are three important concepts: The attack roll, the defense target number, and the effect roll. |
| 6 | Example: A 7th-level Fighter might have | Examples: A 7th-level Fighter might have |
| 6 | For the example, the fighter’s Descending Grapple DC would be 7. |
In the above examples, the fighter’s Descending Grapple DC would be 7. |
| 6 | you can use the Strength for fighters to calculate improvements to Grapple DC |
you can use the Strength table for fighters to calculate improvements to Grapple DC |
| 7 | Some classes—again, Monks come to mind—might also get bonuses to grappling as part of abilities granted upon hitting a certain level. | Some classes—again, Monks come to mind—might also receive bonuses to grappling as part of abilities granted upon reaching a certain level. |
| 7 | CRITICAL HITS. If the system being played has rules for critical hits—double damage, maximum normal damage, roll the dice of damage twice, then add modifiers, whatever—these apply to control point rolls as well. | CRITICAL HITS. If the system being played has rules for critical hits—double damage, maximum damage, roll the dice of damage twice and then add modifiers, or any other method—these apply to control point rolls as well. |
| 10 | For example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. When a creature is trying to drag, throw, or otherwise compel another creature to do something that will be actively resisted. | For example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed, or when a creature is trying to drag, throw, or otherwise compel another creature to do something that will be actively resisted. |
| 10 | You make the attack of opportunity that is granted when someone attempt to establish a grapple with advantage. |
You make the opportunity attack that is granted when someone attempts to establish a grapple with advantage. |
| 10 | You make the attack of opportunity that is granted when someone attempt to establish a grapple with advantage. | You have advantage on attack rolls during your opportunity attack when a creature attempts to establish a grapple on you. |
| 11 | INTERPRETING PFRPG FEATS | INTERPRETING PATHFINDER ROLEPLAYING GAME FEATS |
| 12 | which reduces the targets fighting endurance |
which reduces the target’s fighting endurance |
| 15 | You can find the Control Point Maximum modifier on the Size Adjustment table in Monstrous Grappling. | Find the Control Point Maximum modifier on the Size Adjustment table (see Monstrous Grappling.) |
| 16 | Once the Control Maximum is known, it should be treated like the creature’s maximum hit points, or ability scores, for the most part. | Once the Control Maximum is known, it should be treated like the creature’s maximum hit points, or ability scores, with few exceptions. |
| 16 | or otherwise lower Hit Dice, Proficiency, or Basic Attack Bonus do change the Control Maximum. |
or otherwise lower Hit Dice, proficiency bonus, or basic attack bonus do change the Control Maximum. |
| 17 | The condition, in order of increasing severity, are: | The conditions, in order of increasing severity, are: |
| 17 | The Instant Conditions are described below. Grappling a foe impacts both the attacker and the opponent, each to an extent. | The Instant Conditions are described below. Grappling a foe impacts both the attacker and the opponent, enumerated as noted. |
| 18 | Hindered (condition heading) and Pinned (Condition Heading) | Change to Hindered (Grappled) and Pinned (Restrained) for compatibility with Techniques. |
| 19 | A grappled creature’s speed is halved, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed. A creature that is grappled may not move without flinging or dragging its opponent with them. | A grappled creature’s speed is halved, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed. A creature that is grappled may not move without flinging or dragging its opponent along. |
| 25 | If the attack roll is successful, the attacker earns one “point” of strangulation, plus an additional point for each 10 points by which the attack roll is made. | If the attack roll is successful, the attacker inflicts one “point” of strangulation, plus an additional point for each 10 points by which the attack roll is made. |
| 25 | If you have grappled your for more than 1/5 of his CM in control points, you may attempt a takedown. First, make a grappling attack roll against the foe’s Grapple DC. If it is successful, you may spend 1/5 of your foe’s current CM in Control Points, and force your foe to the ground, rendering them prone. | If you have grappled your foe for more than 1/5 of his CM in control points, you may attempt a takedown. First, make a grappling attack roll against the target’s Grapple DC. If it is successful, you may spend 1/5 of their current CM in Control Points, and force your opponent to the ground, rendering them prone. |
| 25 | If the target gains points equal to 1 + its Constitution bonus (minimum 1), it falls unconscious. | If the target accrues points equal to 1 + its Constitution bonus (minimum 1), it falls unconscious. |
| 25 | If you manage to amass more CP than 1/2 of the wielder’s current CM, you can attempt to wrest it away. This takes a full turn. Roll to hit vs. the foe’s armor class as usual. If you succeed, you take it from them. | If you manage to amass more CP than 1/2 of the wielder’s current CM, you can attempt to wrest it from their grasp. This takes a full turn. Roll to hit vs. the foe’s Grapple DC. If you succeed, you take it away. |
| 27 | inflict enough control points that will, on the average, have the desired effect. | inflict enough control points that will, on average, have the desired effect. |
| 30 | because your alignment is different than
theirs is, or they’re acting on orders from the evil Foom the Woc God. |
because your alignment is different than
theirs, or they’re acting on orders from the evil Foom the Woc God. |
| 30 | They bite to grapple and bring their coils to bear, then constrict cause suffocation until their prey expires. | They bite to grapple and bring their coils to bear, then constrict to cause suffocation until their prey expires. |
| 31 | Creatures with higher hit dice are frequently one or more of larger, stronger, and faster. | Creatures with higher Hit Dice are frequently one or more of larger, stronger, and faster than those with lower Hit Dice. |
| 34 | Its brute defense against grabbed foes will shake off 5-16 control simply by burning its reaction or consuming its immediate action | Its brute defense against grabbing foes will shake off 5-16 control simply by burning its reaction or consuming its immediate action |
| 35 | hit with a grappling attack for injury by rolling 2d6+2 and applying half the roll as bludgeoning damage | hit with a grappling attack for injury by rolling 1d4+4 and applying half the roll as bludgeoning damage |
| 16, 45 | Table: Cast Spell | Miscast Spell |
| 16, 45 | CP Inflicted on Foe | CP Inflicted up to: |
| 16, 45 | Up to Control Maximum | Control Maximum |
Red = probably fracks up layout, and so may need to be changed/dropped
BLUE BOLD = proposed changes about which there has been disagreement on the part of contributors.
I have just one comment regarding these changes.
Page 7 – change phrase “hitting a certain level” to either “earning a certain level” or “reaching a certain level.”
Everything else looks good!
The capitalization of terms in RPGs has always confused me. Why is Grapple DC capitalized and control points not?
Nice job on the book!
I’ll admit I’m not entirely sure. Things like Grapple DC, Armor Class, and Hit Dice seem to be capitalized as fixed quantities. Conditions and descriptions and things that change seem to be lowercase: grappled, incapacitated, hit points, control points.
I’m sure there are exceptions. It may be when you’re trying to establish a term – you’re not “hitting the points” or a verb “hit” on an object “dice.”
P34 original txt :
“Its brute defense against grabbed foes will shake off 5-16 control simply by burning its reaction or consuming its immediate action.”
Suggested txt
“Its brute defense against grabbing foes will shake off 5-16 control simply by burning its reaction or consuming its immediate action.”
p.16 **corrects to** “basic bttack bonus”, which has got to be a typo.
Red text:
on p.11, try Pathfinder RPG, or just Pathfinder; both still seem better than a sudden “PFRPG”.
on p.15, try “see Chapter IV”, without the title, it might be more useful anyway.
on p.31, I fail to see the issue. “Taller people are often more confident” comes across just as clear as adding “than those who are less tall”. “often” is shorter than frequently, though. “one or more of” could go and use “or” later, but this affects meaning more than I’d like.
Hah. typo on a correction. Brilliant.
The licence rules do not allow Pathfinder RPG. It’s either “The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game” or the approved but not product-identity PFRPG. If I’m going to keep that logo on the back, it’s one or the other, and nothing else.
p. 15. Not enough room. No. Sorry. What I can investigate is a hyperlink.
p. 31. It’s considered bad form to make a comparison without a reference. If others hate it, I can leave it as is (that’s always the easiest thing!). I’m OK with the implication as-is, and would welcome more comments.
It’s hard to tell how 17-18 relates to 19-20. I think there’s no link whatsoever, but the last two pages really lack context.
The ToC making Instant Condition Descriptions the same level as Instant Conditions (when it’s clearly a sub-heading) doesn’t help.
Also, it seems Instant Conditions explain how to inflict each condition, but don’t include a way to inflict Prone. I think it’s meant to be the Prone from the rest of the rules, but then it’s weird that description appears here.
Are Instant Conditions for all rule sets, with a shared Prone if you use those but separate Prônés if you don’t?
I don’t have a solution here, just a big question mark.
GURPS is a toolkit, but d20 rarely is.
This does not fall under “errata.” No action will be taken.
Now that I’m on my desk, I wanted to follow up more thoroughly.
First, to my short point: if the comment can’t be phrased as “on p. X, change Y to Z” then it’s not going to happen. The playtest phase of the book is over. This doesn’t make your suggestions or observations invalid, but it does make them impractical.
It does look like there’s a TOC error, though – I’ll look into that.
However, I vastly disagree that d20 isn’t a toolkit. The OSR games have always been “take what you want, leave the rest,” if only because AD&D especially was so, um, interestingly organized that folks that have been playing out of the PHB and DMG for YEARS find stuff they missed.
Pathfinder has so much material available now that it HAS to be a toolkit. You take the sourcebooks and settings you want, and leave the rest. Now that there’s Starfinder and an old west version, this is even more true.
Modularity was a selling point of 5e, advertised in the playtest and highlighted in the marketing for the game. If “modular” doesn’t imply toolkit, I don’t know what does. As an example, feats are completely optional in 5e. There’s a whole section of the book you can just ignore. That’s a toolkit, right there.
So putting “take what you want, leave the rest out” as a feel for the book is more in keeping with how I think D&D has been both designed and played than any sort of “do it this way” message to the book.
Especially when you’re talking about an optional modular system, Dungeon Grappling, which will change the game you play, and the tactics that work. Each group will want and need to do something their own way, and presenting them with options is the best way to have them find something they like.
The ToC fix mostly solves it actually.
Aside errata, you did ask about rules that don’t work, though.
True, but the Instant Conditions rules work fine for the type of player (like Eric, from his review) that don’t want to bother with control points (even though CP are awesome). What I’m looking for (as an example) would be things like “In Pathfinder, on p. 129 of the rules, it says that you can’t take instant actions if you’re trying to grapple, so the entire premise of X won’t work.”
That would more or less be a catastrophe at this stage of the release (and I’ve tested the rules with 5e, Pathfinder, and S&W), but it’d be the type of thing worth fixing.
What you’re suggesting is more along the lines of “it doesn’t work for ME,” which is perfectly cool, but also not universal. Of you, Peter, and Eric, each of you seems to like the release, for *entirely different reasons.*
And that’s great.
with respect to the TOC . . . I need to talk to Nathan about that one. There’s something odd about the hierarchy in there. Looks like my Section and Topic heading levels got the same formatting.
I’ll move away from what d20 should be and stick to the book as written: How do you inflict Prone status under Instant Conditions?
You knock them down, using any of the rules for such? Fifth Edition has Shove, which allows you to knock someone prone. Pathfinder has something similar.
Specifically, you may attack to move someone away or knock them prone using “Shoving a Creature,” which is on p. 26.
Page 7: “get” is a better word than “receive” here, so I don’t see the point of the errata. It doesn’t make a difference either way.
Noted; proposed change marked as controversial.
On p.25 “If the target gains points equal to 1 + its Constitution bonus (minimum 1), it falls unconscious.”
Not only is it a bit weird for the victim to “gain” stuff (maybe “receive” or something would fit better), it seems like two paragraphs earlier it was the attacker gaining points rather than the target.
I’d still recommend having the target accrue points, because I can both imagine monsters strangling multiple targets and being strangled by multiple attackers (tentacles come to mind), so the implicit rule would work. If points stay with the attacker, you may need to add a layout-breaking “against the target”, which is mostly but not entirely implicit.
Also, strangling seems like it should work with Instant Conditions, but the requirement for the “Grappled” status, which IC can’t inflict, seems to prevent it.
While I don’t think it’s terribly unclear what is meant, I will change “earns” to “inflicts,” and change “gains” to “accrues,” though to gain is to increase, so it’s fine as-is.
For the rest, that’s a good point. I used different words for the analogous conditions for Instant Conditions for differentiation’s sake, as it’s a unique system and I didn’t want to cause confusion between them, but I will add (Grappled) after hindered and (Restrained) after Pinned.